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Colonia Dignidad: Welcome to Hell
Posted: 19 June 2007 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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No, it’s fine, I appreciate the lectures.  New signals are good.

Overall, you’re basically saying I should be discussing issues of philosophy, which are not grounded on “facts,” because there are none.  Since there is no way of arriving at “what really happened”—the effort is a waste of time, unless I am considering all possible sides of a story, including those with no evidence to support them.

Correct?

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Posted: 19 June 2007 10:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Uhm....no. I’m not at all suggesting you discuss issues of philosophy - which would get boring fast and most people aren’t interested. But there is one aspect that most people could use - and vitally need. Rhetoric.

I suggest Aristotle’s Fallacies (Sophistical Refutations). It is Rhetoric - not Philosophy. It is one of the most important and fundamental education tools in existence. It has been overlooked the last 200 years, particularly in Anglo-America. I think it was decreed that the hoi polloi should not be so armed.

Aristotles Fallacies is the basis of the concept of the Grammar school. Rhetoric was Aristotle, and the Fallacies were as important as the alphabet. I think the reason it was fundamental and why it has been omitted will become obvious if you read and understand.

( factoid from genre Detective novels: Sophistical Refutations was the basis of the intuitional logic Conan Doyle wove into his stories of Sherlock Homles)

Again, it is a book of method - concerning logic...not a book about mysticism, religion, spirits or etc.

It is the most important book of logic in history. It is the fundamental manual on the critique of disinfo.

Fallacies teaches one how to recognize fallacy, errors of logic, flat out lies. and discern the truth or lack of - in an argument. If you are ever in an crucial argument - such as a court - using and recognizing the tenets of Aritstotles fallacies is on the same level as the writ of the law. If you recognize a logical flaw in an attorneys argument, and all attorneys are familiar with the precepts of ‘Sophistical Refutations’ - your objection will be recognized and will prevail upon citing the logical fallacy listed in ‘Fallacies’. Every lawyer in the land knows the terms of Aristotles Fallacies - usually in the original greek - most of the foreign terms (Greek & Latin) terms you hear in a court are derived from Aritstotles comments on Law and the Fallacies.

If you are in a personal argument or debate - the principals of the ‘Fallacies’ - (if your argument is correct - (’Fallacies’ is rhetoric, not sophistry) can allow you to prevail, diagnose, correct and understand any argument you encounter

It is the original bullshit detector, conversational jujitsu blackbelt and mental belt-fed AK-47 to destroy your enemies and win the chicks. In this sense it is almost infallible.

Take for poor example the general coverage of ‘Colonia Dignidad’ . Although we are too removed from the facts to do anything but infer on the case itself, we can absolutely dissect the arguments themselves for logical fallacies and this will give us an idea of the merits of the case, overall.

To begin with. completely elementary, all coverage takes the angle of an accusation - it is all ‘ad hominum’ - ‘against the man’. The premise is really not that he was a torturer - as you would point out - the premise is that he was german, and a medic in the Luftwaffle - which leads through several stages to the conclusion of innocence or guilt....except in this case it’s not a court verdict. but an article - so, of true or false, in terms of the article - then innocence or guilt, of the man.
‘Against the Man’ is the idea that the character of the man, or charges against that man, are proof of guilt. We generally recognize an ad hominum attacks were the accuser stresses the character of the accused, rather than the likelyhood of committing the act -, or the act is presented as a conclusion to a sequence of non-related but directed characteristics, generally presented as charges, that led to the inference of guilt. These are considered logical fallacies...for obvious reasons.

Ad Hominum arguments raise strong indications that the accusations are false, and that the accuser is aware that their premise is flawed and needs to be concealed within a string of interlocking inferences.

The article you post here and all the others I have read are all extremely flawed in logical consistency. In fact there is no logical consistency. And it is this same flaw in consistency that is consistent. Which is why I say these articles have been conditioned. They keep strictly to a mold.

This is why I state you should read Aristotles Fallacies. You bring nothing to the debate when you pass fallacious logic around. It is a mental virus and a weakness. You make people stupider and spread brainlessness . If you could bring the impartial analysis of logic to subjects like this - you could be perhaps the first intelligent, logical ,and bipartisan analysis to treat various issues. That would be brainfood.

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Posted: 19 June 2007 10:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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etype - 19 June 2007 10:02 PM

It is the most important book of learning in history.

In your opinion.  A flat declarative statement in a long polemic about logical fallacies was LOLZ enough to point out.

etype - 19 June 2007 10:02 PM

You bring nothing to the debate when you pass this shit around.

Yeah, no shit.  That’s because I’m not interested in debating, with you or anyone else, especially over the internet.  I do enjoy asking you question, that’s something I learn from. 

Your vision of what I should be doing is fundamentally different from my own.  So it’s reasonable to expect you would disagree what I am doing with my website.

Anyways, what are you involved in to accomplish the goals you have?  I guess that’d be the question I’m most interested in.

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Posted: 19 June 2007 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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“In your opinion.  A flat declarative statement in a long polemic about logical fallacies was LOLZ enough to point out.”

Personal opinion, related directly to the subject we are discussing - In my experience it is the most elementary and sound book I have ever read on the general, non specific but completely precise analysis of logic that can be applied to everything. To myself it is the fundemental text. Not only that - but i really got a high off of it. I was like 15 or so when i read it.

That’s because I’m not interested in debating, with you or anyone else, especially over the internet.  I do enjoy asking you question, that’s something I learn from.

Fair enough. it’s your website - but you cannot escape a debate irregardless, in some fashion. Just the nature of things.

Your vision of what I should be doing is fundamentally different from my own.  So it’s reasonable to expect you would disagree what I am doing with my website.

I do not disagree whatsoever with the purposes you set for your website. I think your website is excellent. I state that you are not pushing the concept far enough. You might state I have no business to offer any opinion on what you are doing with your own website. Thats ridiculous. You know well enough you can close the forum and ban anybody you wish. It makes no difference. Except you are here, as well as everybody else, because it is a dialogue.

Anyways, what are you involved in to accomplish the goals you have?  I guess that’d be the question I’m most interested in.

My goal is to make films with 3D and other software. The reason i posted because i thought the article in question was terrible - the worst type of conspiracy gutter press - that i felt detracted from the standard of everything else.. A selfish motive .

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Posted: 20 June 2007 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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I wonder if you ask that question because of the article on the front about Gomar2. This is an excellent article and parts of it are really inspiring. I clipped a few statements he made. What am I involved in to accomplish my goals? I work for various media companies on motion graphics and I spend a lot of my other time pushing forward breakthrough techniques doing things that can’t be done. I work part time at a tennis club. I don’t usually hassle sites that post scurrilous articles...I felt your site was worth my time. Sorry.

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Posted: 20 June 2007 03:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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I ask everyone that question, it’s one of the few things I honestly give a fuck about.  Thanks for indulging me.

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Posted: 20 June 2007 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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*edit* never mind…

Colonia Dignidad is very good entertainment indeed.

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Posted: 20 June 2007 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I’ve been staying out of this one, mainly because I see it all as moot.  I mean, if it’s true, it’s yet another horrifying example of the depths to which the human animal can sink.  If it’s not true, the manufacturing of the story is yet another horrifying example of the depths to which the human animal can sink.

However ...

I figured I’d do my weasel thing and sniff around online to see what I came up with.  If you looked into this story, some of you may also have found the following information.  In case you didn’t, here’s a link to website about Boris Weisfeiler, an American college professor who allegedly disappeared near Colonia Dignidad in 1985:

Boris Weisfeiler

of particular interest might be the declassified papers regarding his disappearance, because as we all know, declassified military documents are dope:

Declassified Documents

Upon reading through some of these, my bullshit detector turned itself off, told me to leave it alone, and went to its happy place.  I wouldn’t be able to say for sure what went on at CD, but I can be pretty damn sure that something unsavory was going on.

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Posted: 20 June 2007 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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well one of the problems I have with this, is this. There is realms of documents etc. condemining or alleging the crimes of Colonia Dignidad...mounds of pages that accept all charges, and speculate worse. Except for one paragraph...where is the defense ? As far as I can see there is none.
Until there are two sides to the story - these pages, no matter how civil they seem (and that includes UN and Governmental Reports) are little more than tabloid detective procedural, and worse.

We do know there are lapses in the charges - the continuence of ColDigndad - the finding of the mass grave which contains no bodies, et al.

Since this whole campaign is at the behest of a ‘democratic society’ - then everyone, again for emphasis - ‘everyone’ - is entitled to a defence. When you take that away, well welcome to the ‘war’ on terror. This fits that bill.

Weasel you say upon reading various documents - your bullshit detector turned itself off. Big mistake.

NEVER TURN OFF YOUR BULLSHIT DETECTOR.

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Posted: 20 June 2007 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Mine is ringing off the hook

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When the spaceship beams you up, boy, get drunk fast

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Posted: 22 June 2007 02:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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So your bullshit detector is ringing off the hook. How so? Answer you detector and tell us what it is trying to tell you.

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Posted: 06 August 2007 12:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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etype - 20 June 2007 07:58 PM

well one of the problems I have with this, is this. There is realms of documents etc. condemning or alleging the crimes of Colonia Dignidad...mounds of pages that accept all charges, and speculate worse. Except for one paragraph...where is the defense ? As far as I can see there is none.
Until there are two sides to the story - these pages, no matter how civil they seem (and that includes UN and Governmental Reports) are little more than tabloid detective procedural, and worse.

We do know there are lapses in the charges - the continuance of ColDigndad - the finding of the mass grave which contains no bodies, et al.

Since this whole campaign is at the behest of a ‘democratic society’ - then everyone, again for emphasis - ‘everyone’ - is entitled to a defence. When you take that away, well welcome to the ‘war’ on terror. This fits that bill.

Weasel you say upon reading various documents - your bullshit detector turned itself off. Big mistake.

NEVER TURN OFF YOUR BULLSHIT DETECTOR.

People crave answers.  Governments are composed of people who were followed by others because the others saw answers (or means to answers) in them.  The reason why Cynic, Skeptic, (or other) views are not held up in many cases surrounding “Authentic Government Papers” generally has to do with the desire for people to have an answer to point at.

Terrorism indeed.  Democracy does not exist in a realm where defense is not granted by other people, the offense, a court and where offense not limited by rhetoric or logical situation (as commonly depicted in TV drama-courts; it is not limited on such shows.)

When the norm becomes that which does not have balance for voice of all sides of a system or topic of debate/claim/etc, there can not be an expectation for a truth to be exposed to any one but those who experience(d) the situation(s) first hand, if any such situations existed to begin with.

As far at this article goes.. call the A-Team?

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